Hey @LemmyDev , the official instance (lemmy.ml) seems to be federating with a known tankie instance (lemmygrad[.]ml):

That instance has several... problematic... threads, for example celebrating Stalin and denying Uyghur genocide.

Do you perhaps see this as a problem?

@rysiek @LemmyDev @ruffni (boosted) Why is having an alternate view on current events doubleplusungood?

@Hyolobrika @LemmyDev @ruffni genocide denial is bad because it's genocide denial.

It's really that simple.

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@rysiek @LemmyDev @ruffni No I don't think it is that simple. Denying a genocide is obviously not the same as supporting a genocide, and I don't understand why people conflate the two.
If someone has doubts as to the official narrative, are they a bad person? I don't see how that can be the case. It seems like a very irrational and unkind way of thinking to think that it is the case (I'm not saying that the people in question are not bad people for other reasons, but if you take genocide denial on its own I think what I say holds water)
@Hyolobrika @rysiek @LemmyDev @ruffni tbh i believe in an ongoing event a lot less when one isn't allowed to talk about it.

:cirno_doubt: did $event really happen. i'd like to see some proof.
:blobfoxtableflip: YOU'RE AN EVENT DENIER
@rysiek @Hyolobrika @LemmyDev @ruffni on /r/science they basically declared the global warming narrative as gospel and any dissenting peer review papers were not allowed.

i stopped taking the entire board seriously at that point.

@icedquinn @Hyolobrika @LemmyDev @rysiek i don't get it. does that mean holocaust denial is cool? or we should at least "listen to *both* sides"?

@ruffni @Hyolobrika @LemmyDev @rysiek the whole argument boils down to some devs did a free speech and someone had an opinion that wasn't liked.

you're free to use the software to run an instance that doesn't believe in debates or speech.

@icedquinn @Hyolobrika @LemmyDev @rysiek now stop your proto-fascist bullshit propagande. please! i beg you!

the line is not between "believers of free speech" and "triggered snowflakes". the line is between people who know that tolerating stuff like genocide-denial leads to fascism (sorry, this is massively boilt down) and people who pretend to "just want to have a discussion" while denying basic human rights to a group of people.

choose your side wisely

@ruffni @Hyolobrika @LemmyDev @rysiek you're literally mad that people didn't censor opinions you didn't like when they didn't agree to censor them.

the only difference is you're claiming you wanted it censored for extra special reasons.

sometimes people are gonna have thoughts you don't like. that's cool, it's a federated system. you can run your own server where you accuse every random person of cryptofascism. and we don't have to federate with it.

@icedquinn @Hyolobrika @LemmyDev @rysiek
???? human rights are extra special reasons?

and no, i don't care what they do on lemmy. idgaf. but knowing they're ccp bootlickers and stalinists means i don't want to be associated with them, i will not advertise the thing and honestly: i have to regard them as the dimwits they are.

not so sure why a) you people get so triggered over this (may i not have an opinion and voice it) and b) this cow-nazi suddenly appears to spray slurs

@ruffni @icedquinn @LemmyDev @rysiek Voicing an opinion does not violate anyone's human rights.

Just ignore/block/mute the cow guy. He's an asshole and also seems to be a bona fide Nazi (from a post I saw on one of his alts that I don't want to look for right now).

@Hyolobrika @ruffni @LemmyDev @icedquinn @rysiek Oh boy, what a thread this is! Calling free speech fascistic lol, I have seen it all

@ruffni @icedquinn @LemmyDev @rysiek Where is your evidence that tolerating a wide variety of speech leads to fascism?
@ruffni @LemmyDev @icedquinn @rysiek
Your argument is basically "you're either with us or against us". The issue is non-binary, like every political issue.

no, it's not!

i, like @rysiek, doubt official versions of china regarding the issue.

not sure why y'all are getting so triggered by that fact. care to elaborate?

@Hyolobrika btw. your identity/heritage (half-jew) unfortunately does neither strongen nor weaken any points you're trying make. why would you even bring that up? is your opinion on the matter more important because you ancestors lived through something similar?

@ruffni @rysiek
> the line is between people who know that tolerating stuff like genocide-denial leads to fascism (sorry, this is massively boilt down) and people who pretend to "just want to have a discussion" while denying basic human rights to a group of people
That seemed pretty binary to me.

Nobody is triggered here but you.

I mention my ancestry because if even I, who stereotypically has an emotive reason to oppose Holocaust denial, can see the difference between that and Holocaust *support* then gentiles such as, presumably, yourself can too. Since, as you have said in a previous conversation, you use anonymous imageboards, I can understand your aversion to mentioning one's identity where it doesn't seem relevent, but I think it was relevent in this instance.
I thought imageboards were pretty pro-free-speech in culture and moderation anyway. What gives?

@Hyolobrika @rysiek as i told you before, just because i know of image boards does not mean i use or like them (for sanity's sake!)

also, please refrain from presuming cultural identities of people who don't give any such context.

i'm referring to karl popper's tolerance paradoxon en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_

looking at the start of the thread: someone told others not to use a site/instance and YOU asked what the problem with "alternate views on current events" was.


@Hyolobrika @rysiek one person warns about whacky auth-left contents. what makes you call stalin-propaganda and genocide-denial "alternate views"? you're not triggered? "muh free speech"?

seriously, if you're so blatant with your identity, please educate yourself with the history of anti-semitism in europe (for the last 1000 yrs). please read some real 1930ies nazi propaganda. please try to see the signs instead of just "free speech"ing authoritarian bullshit.

"alternate views" my ass

@ruffni @rysiek
> I don't use imageboards
Ok fair enough. I either misread you or misremembered.

I wasn't calling Stalin propaganda an alternative view (although it is, however much we disagree with it). I was saying that about genocide denial, i.e. having an unpopular view on a politically and emotionally charged, and horrific, event.
If you think denying that an atrocity is taking place / took place implies supporting that atrocity, then I would like to see your reasoning.
@ruffni @rysiek Also, wasn't it the case before the Nazis came to power that they *were* censored and deplatformed and all that and that it *only served to make them more persuasive*? Idk, I'm not a big history nerd but I do remember hearing that somewhere.
In the modern day, I'm told, neo-nazis use the fact that they are censored and deplatformed as 'evidence' that they are right ('look at what (((they))) don't want us to know'). Might that also have been true for the original Nazis? Forbidden knowledge is a very persuasive hook.

@Hyolobrika @rysiek that's been their rhetorics all the time. like conspiracy theories: follow allong and you'll find out it was the jews all along.

which doesn't mean that it's true. i don't know of a single instance where nazis were actually censored, but know of countless times they ranted over being censored. you can not be too oppressed if you may voice your oppression so loudly. unlike the uyghurs.

imo strict censorship can't solve the problem.

@Hyolobrika @rysiek
stories persist as long as there are listeners who don't know WHY they are bullshit.

imo the only true way to handle such content is to actually give a platform, contextualize the content. tell people why something is dangerous.

germany does that with nazi propaganda. it's not forbidden, but you must set context, and you may not read a whole speech without interruption (i.e. on stage)

just spreading bullshit is simply dangerous, if you intend it to be or not


@ruffni @rysiek if you disallow certain kinds of content (i.e. Nazi propaganda) then the people who want to spread that content can claim suppression. And people might wonder, *why* is there suppression? Might it be because powerful figures don't want the 'truth' to get out? Whether this is valid reasoning or not is irrelevant. They will and do claim this, and people will listen and at least sometimes believe.
@ruffni @rysiek not being able to say certain things *is* censorship, whatever the context, regardless of what you said earlier
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@Hyolobrika @rysiek i think the key point is motive: what motive would you have to doubt claims of a genocide?

saying: "i doubt official story on event X" is always fine. neither gov nor media can be trusted per se.

but spreading doubt upon claims of genocide, which is supposed to happen in a country where there is not even a claim of "free speech" or journalistic freedom....?! i don't get why this seems so hard for you.
maybe you explain how/why this seems ok/cool to you?

@Hyolobrika @rysiek and no, cult of personality is never any kind of "view".


but yeah, maybe you can explain that to me too

@ruffni @rysiek a cult of personality is based on the views of the cultists about the person they think is so great

@Hyolobrika @rysiek nope. it's per definition top-down propaganda.

the "views" are formed through means of modern technologies and social engineering.

did you not even skim through the wiki links i send you?

@ruffni @rysiek that may be how Wikipedia defines it, but that's not the common definition in my experience
Language is descriptive, not prescriptive
@ruffni @rysiek
For example, I have heard the aura of worship around RMS described as a 'cult of personality' IIRC. No authority there.

and even if it's put in their heads by an authority, it's still their view

Which authority is putting Stalin-worship in the heads of the denizens of lemmygrad.ml btw?

@Hyolobrika @rysiek 🤣

i'll have to stop here

i won't discuss your perception of truth or the meaning of certain words.

you claim to be willing to discuss, while you seem unwilling to understand at the same time. what a pity!

if you ever feel to bring up your "free speech" issues when someone addresses tankie- (or other authoritarian) propaganda, please leave me out of it.

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@ruffni @icedquinn @LemmyDev @rysiek As a half-Jew, I am ok with Holocaust denial. It doesn't logically imply hatred of my people, even if the groups of people who hold those two attitudes overlap quite a bit in my experience.
@Hyolobrika@counter.fedi.the weird thing is wanting to scrutinize the history of something is seen as diligent for all things other than when the conclusion is a matter of politics.

@ruffni @LemmyDev @rysiek

@Hyolobrika @LemmyDev @rysiek what does that look like?

also: usually there's no "proof" for genocides. check like any genocide ever. wtf are you thinking?!

@Hyolobrika @LemmyDev @ruffni whose "official narrative"? I, for one, have serious doubts about China's official narrative around this.

There is a line between doubting something is happening, and voicing "doubts" as a form of denial or even support for something. Holocaust denial is a prime example of that. But also climate change denialism, too.

At this stage there is enough evidence of what's happening to Uyghurs in China to call it genocide. Denying it is effectively supporting it.

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