@rysiek i find the #RightToRepair statement of principles quite lacking. Suppose you buy a thermostat that is programmed to only function when getting instructions from honeywell's server. Honeywell decides to pull the plug on the server, & all thermostats become useless. None of the 5 articles cover that.

@resist1984 you are more than welcome to create a better statement of principles, and then promote it and gain momentum. I'll sign it.

Meanwhile, this one is already making waves in the USA and seems pretty effective in fighting back against Apple and John Deere's (and others) lobbyists. So I'll take it.

@rysiek i think we need to distinguish a body of principles from a bill that lawmakers would sign. You wouldn't want FSF principles to have just freedom 0 and freedom 1, but neglect freedom 2 and freedom 3. The principles completely embody all needs of that paradigm. Sure the bills given to lawmakers might have to be broken into smaller pieces b/c they're afraid of large changes.

@rysiek If TomTom stops selling maps or Roku or Wii stops their online svc, you're fucked & yet article 1-5 miss this. A #RightToRepair that leaves someone w/a proprietary box doesn't go far enough if it only gives legal rights & not tech means. I don't just want TomTom to allow fiddling w/their old box- I want TomTom to release the SDK & src code when it decides it's EOL.


DA here:

Wait so you buy a Jeep and when they stop making Jeep’s they have to teach you how to make and repair one?! Like, the one time purchase of the item isn’t enough, it has to last forever?


@seven @rysiek you seem to be conflating training with code disclosure. If Jeep decides to stop maintaining their software, they no longer need the /all rights reserved/ incentive to create the creative works. Copyright was effectively too long, and should be cut short.

@rysiek @seven Mandated training would be overly imposing, but I do think the system should build-in an incentive for product makers to publish service manuals at product EOL time, perhaps in the form of carbon credits. The more a company does to facilitate longevity of their products, the lower their effective carbon footprint is.

@resist1984 @seven @rysiek

I don't know what the precise legal situation is for British Leyland/Rover cars made from about 1968 to 2005 or who owns the IP for the parts (SAIC in China maybe?) but there seems to be a thriving and tolerated aftermarket to keep these vehicles on the roads (even the newer ones are becoming collectable) and I've not heard of anyone get sued for making aftermarket parts (nor any safety issues with the restored cars). So there's a framework to start from...

@vfrmedia @rysiek @seven I think with cars you often have protectionist warranties. E.g. BMW has some special expensive proprietary mechanic's computer that only authorized service centers are allowed to use, in order to control the service industry which shuts out some mechanics from working on them. I don't know all the particulars but that sort of thing should be addressed by #RightToRepair.

@resist1984 @rysiek @seven

yes, it got /worse/ recently - (my cousin bought a G30 hybrid and gave me his OBD2 scanner as it doesn't work with newer BMWs, but I was able to use it to diagnose an issue with my older VW).

EU law is supposed to allow indpendent repairs, but still permits manufacturers to force independent garages to use one of their proprietary systems (or at least an equivalent) and many make warranty claims in first 3 years difficult unless dealer workshop is used >>

@resist1984 @rysiek @seven

this also covers up the fact that those who buy new cars are unpaid quality control testers as most countries do not have independent roadworthiness test until the car is > 3 years old; so all the problems (some often serious) can be quietly patched up with minimal disclosure (perhaps a "right to reliability" is also needed, particularly with safety critical items such as motor vehicles?)

@vfrmedia @resist1984 @seven I like "right to reliability".

I would also like a "right to non-smart functionality". I do not want a smart TV, a smart light bulb, a smart fridge, nor a a smart toaster. But I simply cannot get certain devices, especially if I am looking for middle-to-high end stuff, *without* smart bullcrap.

It's a damn TV, or a toaster. It should not need the smart bits for it's basic function, and so I should be able to either get or *reliably and provably* disable smart capabilities.

@rysiek @resist1984 @seven

I've noticed (where you can still get the option) a price premium of about 50-400€ for the "non smart" device which is presumably the perceived value of the data it gathers.

you can get a non-smart TV by searching for a TV with "prison/hospital mode" but they are generally small screen devices, but for large screens the only non-smart ones are digital signage displays which are a lot more expensive...

@vfrmedia @resist1984 @seven yup. There are some less-known, smaller brands that still offer non-smart large-screen TVs, but it's a dying breed.

@rysiek @resist1984 @seven

bulk purchase of sets for prison/hospital/hotel/nursing home is still a big market for non-smart ones, as even in places where patients/residents might not have their viewing restricted, 40 TV sets on the wifi is a big drain on Internet bandwidth and network capacity that is also used for cloud-based patient databases!

@rysiek @resist1984 @seven

OTOH I can't see what useful data even adtech firms could get from a toaster; there is little that can be safely put into it other than sliced bread or maybe bagels; unless the device contains a CCD or full scale camera it would be near impossible to work out the precise items being toasted and even if they did they aren't particularly high cost! *unless* the toaster is scanning what *other* mobile devices are in the vicinity for marketing purposes..

@resist1984 @rysiek and that's not a hypothetical situation -- it seems less of an "if" and more of a "when". The latest shutdown announcement: hackaday.com/2021/07/19/samsun

@th @resist1984 yeah, only to be expected. It was the same with Microsoft Zune, same with innumerable DRM schemes, same with Sonos *bricking* their old speakers:

@rysiek @resist1984 there are a few success stories, like Katharine Berry taking over the Pebble watch servers to start the Rebble community: rebble.io/2016/12/09/rebble-pe

@th @resist1984 nice, had no idea! I'm somewhat surprised (in a good way!) that whoever owns the Pebble brand now did not send them C&D letters.

@rysiek @resist1984 Katherine was one of the lead devs at Pebble -- she created the PebbleCloud servers on her own and was hired by Pebble to turn it into a real service. Not sure how they managed it after the FitBit acquisition, although presumably having Eric (the founder of Pebble) on her side helped.

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