@jordan31 @eloquence To an extent, you're right kind of right. Deeds, not words. If you want more free software, just build it.

On the other hand, after you've done the deed, I think you should also talk about it so people know you had a particular political motive with that deed.

I wish the FSF had done more deeds. It should be the FSF Summer of Code, not GSoC. It should be FSFHub, not Github; FSF-OS not Android.

Under RMS's leadership, the FSF just has had many words and few deeds.

@JordiGH @jordan31 @eloquence And then somebody says that they're doing it to "Further the Kingdom of God" (in the end, a political stance), and some people think that this also implies that this must mean that they're against same-sex marriage (which may be true for some, false for others) or whatever else they consider a horrible political position: Instant drama. (For example, https://sqlite.org/codeofethics.html made the news much more than it warranted IMHO)

So the only way to be safe would be to explain all politics all the time. That's tiresome for all involved and it likely means that people will focus on the differences, forming social bubbles and reducing cooperation.

Meanwhile proprietary software continues to be built without that friction because enterprises can paper over smaller (and even larger) political differences by establishing a "don't ask, don't tell" framework for politics, because they want to get shit done, and they pay enough to make people follow that policy.

@patrick @JordiGH @eloquence @jordan31@theres.life omg is this sqlite thing real or an april fools?

@JordiGH @robey @patrick @eloquence it was in response to calla for sqlite to have a code of conduct. i don’t know whether this part is true, but what he claomed was that since he’s the only developer, having a code of conduct was kind of absurd. so he put up a statement about how he conducts himself.

@JordiGH @robey @patrick @eloquence i have since noticed there may be other developers?

it was borderline- since codes of condict are a good idea, it was read by some to be mocking the idea of codes of conduct. but i don’t think that was the intent

@zens @JordiGH @robey @eloquence It's a core team and according to that page (which explains how the CoE came to be) they seem pretty well-aligned in their beliefs and worked it out together.

Apparently they drafted it in response to checkbox items in contract material that asked "what CoC are you using?"

"Everything is political" quickly leads to demanding that people discuss matters that they wouldn't discuss otherwise and then not liking their answer (maybe merely because it's unusually phrased as in the CoE, which is why the reaction to it became my go-to example for the problem).
It's a divisive philosophy and I'm not sure Free Software can afford balkanizing its ecosystem that way.

And just for clarification, somebody who just won't shut up about their controversial beliefs despite being told that they make people uncomfortable is an entirely different situation ("push" vs. "pull" information flow):

Pushing an agenda because "they're right", with no regard if that makes others within a group uncomfortable, poisons a community and there needs to be a way to evict such people - even if they have a claim to fame from 40 years ago.

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence it’s precisely that situation that a code of conduct is for- and it’s certainly not some weird trend in software, codes of conduct are standard in pretty much all other industries, if anything it’s software that’s weird for thinking it doesn’t need them.

it’s like a contract- it doesn’t really matter what’s in it, so long as everyone understands up front what they are agreeing to. leaving things unstated and assumed leads to problems worse than balkinising.

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence and its situations like the fsf, and ICE’s use of software against its author’s wishes, and lots of other unintended consequences of the concept of free software that has led to a reckoning. we shouldn’t treat foss as an infallible good, like it’s a cult. it has failed us and we should question it, absolutely. stating all political agendas up front is part of that.

@zens @robey @JordiGH @eloquence The CoE _was_ written to be used in the software industry, so apparently that "trend" of not having rules of engagement only affects a subset of software. And I'm not arguing against codes of conduct in general.

In the industry (no matter the field) the purpose is to clarify "what's your handbook for dealing with bad situations?" We seem to agree on that, given your last paragraph.

The CoE explains that pretty well and yet it created a shitstorm - by the way, that's something you won't get in the industry: your contract might fall through, but your would-be contract partner won't put up a NYTimes ad "they have a weird CoC so they are horrible people."

The motivation looks _very_ different to me and the catch phrase for that motivation seems to be "everything is politics".

In the industry they doesn't care about "politics", they care about being able to work together. Preparing for the worst (that's why contracts are longer than "you do X, we do Y"), but still, work together.

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence if industry doesn’t care about politics then surely they don’t need all those lobbyists?

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence a contract might fall through, but at least your employees won’t hire a fleet of paid PR “employees” to slander the concept of trade unions?

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence everything *is* politics, and i really don’t understand what you are getting at, other than just objecting to a kind of politics *you* don’t like.

@zens @robey @JordiGH @eloquence So what kind of politics do you image do I not like? Except the notion that "everything is politics", of course - I'm quite clear on that :-)

(digging a bit because this is such a worn out phrase that I wonder if it comes from some rhetorics course)

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence i am really not sure, about even whether we are arguing woth each other or just talking about a subject in vague agreement. as a guess, maybe you are worried that pushy people vocal about their politics will discourage cooperation in the free software realm? i think i see the phenomenon you’re describing but see it more as a reaction to uh, monstrously abusive figures in the free software realm that have been tolerated so far using excuses like that

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence a thing i have gradually learned is that we really don’t know what happens behind closed doors that might lead to ads in the new york times. it’s not fair to assume that what is publically known is all there is to know

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence also, is the nyt reference to something specific? i’m not sure what that is

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence if i am gay, or black or jewish or trans, i would certainly want to know up front whether or not the founder believes i deserve to exist or be treated as a full equal human being. it’s the privilege of the favoured class of people to not need to worry about the politics of an organisation. for everyone else it’s a matter of survival.

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence twitter’s gonna twitter. it’s a ahame that the medium encourages that viral knee jerk reactionary shit, but i am pretty suspicious of any claim that it represents a coherent group of people, or a movement, or some kind of scary phenomenon. i thought everyone just overreacted to a misunderstanding. in their defense, sqlite guy is not a skilled PR person, which is normally what it takes to avoid these sorts of issues.

@zens @robey @JordiGH @eloquence "twitter’s gonna twitter" as in "boys will be boys"? That feels rather reactionary when the vocal proponents of CoCs are all there.

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence i don’t think noting public square commentary is a thing that exists is comparable to excusing sexual assault

@zens @robey @JordiGH @eloquence Of course it can be compared. It's a shitty comparison, I agree, but in either case troublesome behavior is excused because of sympathies.

And I thought it's about raising the standard.

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence so you reckon it’s possible to file a court case against twitter for hosting people who publically talk about sexual assault, and this is the same thing as holding a registered legal entity to account for its employees behavior?

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@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence needing a pr department to avoid these situations is not a thing twitter invented either. it’s just made it more visible, something that you would ordinarily only see in the mail room of the organisation.

@zens @robey @JordiGH @eloquence As in, the difference between a sealed investigation report in a court case and a nyt ad. No problem there, right?

@patrick @robey @JordiGH @eloquence these bows you are drawing, are very long bows. be careful you don’t get snapped.

@zens The opposite of "everything is politics" isn't "nothing is politics".

But yeah, that "don't care about politics" was meant in the context of parties working together, I should have been clearer about that.

Trivial and rather stupid example: Fanboys tend to be stupified if their love-brand and their hate-brand cooperate even though they imagine that there must be some undying hate between the workforces of the companies behind them.

@patrick stupid people
say stupid things, and nothing brings out the stupid like communication mediums with extremely low barriers to entry, no cooldown periods, forced brevity, and features that encourage the deletion of context

@patrick @JordiGH @zens @eloquence i think you might be making the same mistake as the sqlite people in this case: a code of "conduct" is different from a code of "ethics". COE is what they believe inside. COC is a statement of expected behavior. it prevents misunderstandings about someone's actions.

if i ask a project for its COC and they tell me they worship the pangolin gods of venus, i'm going to very naturally be concerned. :)

@robey @JordiGH @zens @eloquence

An earlier version of the CoC document (https://www.sqlite.org/docsrc/file?name=pages/codeofconduct.in&ci=af1ee4516a565747) contained the following paragraph: "However, comments posted on mailing lists or forums are expected to be courteous and professional, and should be worded as if they were written by someone who is a follower of this rule. [...] Violators brought to the attention of the project leader will be reproved, gently at first but with increasing urgency, and may ultimately be banned if the behavior is not amended." (note: it doesn't ask people to "follow The Rule", just to behave in the community in a way compatible to it)

Isn't that the missing link from "professional" CoCs which provides a pledge to honor the company manual in interactions with another company to a "community" CoC that deals with an unbounded set of people interacting together by demanding CoC adherence on everybody "Terms of Services"-style?

@patrick @JordiGH @zens @eloquence the paragraph you quoted would -- to me -- suffice as a perfectly fine CoC on its own. it's a good example of the form. it declares expected behavior and how they handle violations: the very definition of a CoC.

i can't comment on the rest of it because i couldn't even make it past 3 items on their cult declaration page before i closed the tab.

(i don't understand your "company manual" paragraph but i haven't really been following the thread)

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