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We published a statement on our stance on neutrality of free software (and why we won't stay neutral in this case): f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/stat

We know that our server is sometimes overloaded. Therefore, try this link if the official website doesn't work for you: web.archive.org/web/2019071706

@fdroidorg
Good call. Thanks for being sane. Though I hope these political decisions will be kept at an absolute minimum.

@fdroidorg

Ooh, this will be a really nice thread to feed my blocklist.

Ok, here are the rules - I don't care whether you voice your opinion supporting the block or resisting the block. All I care about is if you voice your opinion politely and respectfully. If not, welcome to my blocklist.

@chebra all sounds very sensible to me, particularly the distinction between tools and platforms. I agree the app devs have the right to code their app however they see fit. I disagree with what #Tusky did, because it creates a precedent for the developers of other software that implements standard protocols to be pressured to build in political blocks for all sorts of reason, and dogpiled if they don't. Reading between the lines, it seems like that's already happened to #Fedilab.
@fdroidorg

@strypey @chebra @fdroidorg Yeah. I agree with you. And I think F-Droid took the right decision to enhance his policy on the store.

@strypey @fdroidorg
Agreed, I don't agree with Tusky either. A hardcoded block is exactly why we have OSS and rickrolling is just childish. I'm merely giving them the benefit of the doubt and will drop them if they do something like that again. Gab is clearly the moral bad guy, but how we deal with bad guys is what defines us. Tusky chose to get down on their level and use their methods. Fedilab and F-Droid are trying to find a higher level of morality, navigating through the maze carefully.

@chebra
> Gab is clearly the moral bad guy, but how we deal with bad guys is what defines us.

This. Particulary when it comes to avoiding "friendly fire" and "collatoral damage". I posted a piece about this a while back on #LibCom:
libcom.org/forums/feedback-con
@fdroidorg

@chebra Disagreeing with the attitudes of "by any means necessary" and "the ends justify the means" is why I joined the anarchist movement in the 90s, not a marxist-leninist vanguard party. Those ideas haven't gone away and it seems like many new recruits to the left don't know our history well enough to know why that kind of sectarian bloody-mindedness is the problem, not the solution.
@fdroidorg

@strypey @fdroidorg
Exactly. Humans have been struggling with separating the bad guys without friendly fire for thousands of years and haven't really come up with a clear simple solution. Mathematically, it's because our actions are often binary (block vs not block) but the "badness" is a spectrum. Where exactly should we draw the line? Some issues are clear enough, but others are unresolved as of today.

@chebra @strypey @fdroidorg
...get down on their level? Since when is rickrolling racists as bad as being a racist? That's some serious enlightened centrist shit.

@lihu
yourlogicalfallacyis.com/straw

Come back when you've got over the compulsion to accuse people of stuff that has nothing to do with anything they actually said, just so you can feel smug and morally superior to them.
@chebra @fdroidorg

@fdroidorg what resources is fdroid working with for the website btw? im assuming the site is statically served rather than dynamically generated for each page load
@1iceloops123 could you SHUT UP instead and say something rational for once
@fdroidorg Very well written and clear stance on the issue which I fully support. Thanks for sharing.

@fdroidorg "staying neutral isn’t an option but instead will lead to the uprise of previously mentioned oppression and harassment against marginalized groups"

Thanks for taking a clear stance!

@fdroidorg

You seem to believe that Gab is wholly composed of harassers. This is simply false.

The majority of Gab users are nothing like that. AND harassers exist on every platform.

Singling out Gab like this is silly.

The reason Gab has been seized upon is because it's popular with Trump supporters, and a lot of Trump opponents are desperate to do anything they can to prevent Trump 2020.

@jhol @fdroidorg
It's always the few bad eggs that ruin it for everyone else.
I guess collective punishment here we go.

@BadAtNames @jhol @fdroidorg
pretty much. You see a person beeing a twat, just ban that person from federating with your instance or block him on you account, can't be that hard?

@jhol

> The majority of Gab users are nothing like that.

And these Gab users don't seem to perform much action against the harassers that exist on that platform - contrary to many other places on the Internet, whose communities actually do something about the hate speech problem.

@fdroidorg

@phoe @fdroidorg

There's no such thing as "hate speech". There's only free speech. You may not like some of it. If you don't like it, don't listen.

@jhol @fdroidorg See, F-Droid doesn't like it. That's exactly why F-droid doesn't listen to it anymore.

@phoe
Well.i dont like mastodon maybe i should get rid of it
@jhol @fdroidorg

@phoe @fdroidorg

Right... and I'm saying they're doing something idiotic.

"Hate speech" cannot be consistently defined. It is not a politically neutral term. If f-droid start trying to moderate political ideas on their platform, there's simply no way they can do so consistently.

@jhol Sure it can. "Hate speech is speech that attacks a person or a group on the basis of protected attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, national origin, sex, disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity" - that's via Wikipedia.
@fdroidorg

@phoe @fdroidorg

I know what the term means. I don't accept it (nor does the US legal system, but I digress)

@phoe @jhol @fdroidorg let's see if that definition holds.

I have seen instance administrators vowing to let their users insult other users on the basis of their race and sex, as long as those insults are directed towards white men.

Is that hate speech?

@elsacodelcoco @phoe @fdroidorg

Someone did it to me in this very thread!

- I can't tell though, because he blocked me.

F-droid had better delete Firefox from their repository, otherwise someone might be able access this vile hate speech..

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

Firefox doesn't brand itself with the logo of a company that abuses free speech to promote and benefit off hate speech. This is exactly what Gab does and - at least for me - which is the elephant in the room that hardly anyone talks about. Free speech, free speech, but why is Gab so proud of performing and/or tolerating gestures that actively harm other people?

@jhol

As for that reaction that you got, yes, I think it was overblown, unless the person in question is in some severe emotional distress that they can no longer safely hold it inside them.

In general, it's okay for me to disagree via civil discussion, but simply throwing "fuck you" around - sure, it helps one person with letting some emotions out, but is also plainly harmful to both sides of the discussion in the long run.

@elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

@phoe @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg

Yes... and I'm not calling for that individual to be banned. I'm not calling for their platform to be banned. And I'm not calling for the app that accesses their platform to be banned.

That would be idiotic. f-droid are being idiotic.

@jhol @elsacodelcoco Yep - you're not doing that.

That's where I, personally, have noticed some time ago that some other people can't "not call for an individual/platform/app" as easily as other people, like you. The thing that you've called "just don't look at it" isn't as obvious for some other people or groups of people as they are for you. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco Why? That's a pretty broad question - usually due of hardships in their life that require most of their attention. The attention that they would normally spend on clicking "ignore" is already gone, as they've been fighting off other things - health issues, law issues, educational issues, social issues in general... the list goes on and on. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco So, for me, the first trick was to notice that it's generally invalid to extrapolate from me to other people when it comes from details even to simplest things, like them being able to see. So if I'm able/unable to do something, it's not obvious that the other party can do that in the same manner and at the same relative cost that I would/wouldn't. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco And once I've got that figured out, I was able to use my own curiosity and empathy to actually start figuring things out - if they showed me the finger, why's that? Did they just want to ruin my life? Were they too annoyed to do otherwise? Were they scared of talking with me for some reason and turned it into aggression? The list of questions goes on. [>>]

@jhol And also that's when I started kind-of using my eyes to try and read between, around, and behind the lines to figure out what a single act can mean when it is put in the whole context, not completely removed from it. That's exactly why I asked @elsacodelcoco to provide the full context for the post - I want to figure out exactly what happened there, what the discussion was about, and possibly what the person in question wanted to post about themselves on the Internet. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco It's easy to pull things out of context and focus on the emotional side of such purposefully crippled information - and that's exactly what shitty fake news services do to gain views and money.

And also a decent definition of manipulation, at least for me.

@phoe @elsacodelcoco You're showing a great deal of charity to this person.

Could this charity not also apply to Gab users?

I'm a big fan of Dave Cullen @DaveCullen - he's a very middle of the road conservative. What's wrong with that?

People keep saying Gab = Nazis and Gab = Fascists, but that's just not true beyond stereotypes.

There may be "literal fascists" there. I never saw any. I'm not looking for them.

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen

Gab, as a company, focuses on monetizing hate speech that it propagates via free speech. That's what I called the abuse of free speech previously in the discussion. [>>]

@jhol @elsacodelcoco @DaveCullen

Since Gab is a corporate instance and access is offered for free, then I am the product, even if I'm just a number in their user count; it means that if I join Gab, I help Gab in its goals, also in the one that I stated above. I do not want to do this, and I consider other people who stay there complicit or supportive of that behaviour. If they were not okay with what Gab does, they would not stay there.

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@phoe @DaveCullen @elsacodelcoco @jhol

It is sad to exclude piece of software on political reasons. I don't agree with facebook or youtube, would it be a reason to pressure f-droid to drop tinfoil (if it still exists) or any other youtube app like newpipe?

What I don't like about the whole issue is that people demand that their safe space is handled to them by a central authority. Then you give power to the whole concept of the central figure that protects you. What if that central figure changes its views? What if we are the oppressors in the eyes of the new authority?

If you need a safe space please take the time to create it. Tools shall offer this power on an individual level. Ask for this. Banning a piece of software on political reasons is dangerous thing to have happened and will influence future conflicts in way that many people may be disappointed in the future.

In this issue I totally agree with the stance of fedilab. It says there is an issue, let's give you the power to choose. What is hate speech or harassment is a social construct. If we allow decisions to be made on that ground maybe our voices will be harassment in the future. And the people crying now for protection may be the ones that will be faced with exclusion.

@phoe @elsacodelcoco @fdroidorg
F-droid really shouldn't get involved in this. There are bad actors everywhere.

If F-droid starts trying police these things through making political distinctions between apps, there's no way they can enforce it consistently with political neutrality.

If the big silicon valley tech giants can't do it, there's no way f-droid can.

@elsacodelcoco @jhol @fdroidorg Do you have a link for that post? I'll want to take a look at the original material - my opinion will be worth little or nothing otherwise if I can't see the source.

@phoe @jhol @fdroidorg sure. Here's the question someone asked: "if a black woman insults me on Mastodon only for supposedly belonging to the hypothetical oppressive group of white men, will that be pursued?" mobile.twitter.com/frnjrrz/sta

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