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Interesting that none of the linux news websites are not reporting about the new sounds on GNOME 43.

@ivan beside the fact that it's a default de on Ubuntu, Fedora, RHEL (and rebuilds) and openSUSE just to name a few, they do 😁. Imho, it's has evolved a lot over the years and it's far better than when GNOME 3 came out. Some poeple might not like it now but a lot of newcomers to linux I've met prefer GNOME. It is less flexible but it feels less flimsy compared to Plasma. Most of the time newcomers either use Mint (Cinnamon) or Ubuntu (GNOME) but i see Ubuntu more often.

@dusansimic Tried it recently, I wouldn’t want it on anyone. GNOME 2.x was sensible and logical (even then, just before 3.0 came out, features were getting removed for seemingly designers’ choice rather than what users needed — but nothing like what GNOME 3.0+ turned out to be).

A friend’s using popOS, and observing how he’s using it, it seems like that’s heavily customized compared to what’s being set up for me on corporate desktop I have access to.

I gave it a chance, but it’s so wildly bonkers I’m sticking to i3 on desktop, KDE on Steam Deck, Windows for gaming, Mac if I need something appley (FCPX, good-but-cheap photo editors, that’s pretty much it nowadays). Heck, I’ll go to IceWM if everything else stops working — as long as nobody forces Wayland on me.

@ivan well, all I can say is times are changing 😅. I know a lot of people who wouldn't touch Plasma or MATE, let alone GNOME with a stick. I however know far more people who don't really care how their de looks or functions, they usually adapt to it in a few days or weeks. Some even like GNOME now. They are more anoyed when it takes some fidgeting around the system to get banal stuff like vpn working. Linux is going to get more and more users that are less enthusiastic about configuring...

@ivan everything to their taste and more about just getting to work, weather we like it or not. That means that some design decisions that GNOME is doing might help and some might not but also there are other issues that have become just expected from Linux (like bluetooth, no-one expects it to work properly). It's fine if someone doesn't like how a projects is evolving but if majority of users are fine with it, then focus on some other problems.

@ivan I'd also like to just say, it might look I'm shilling for GNOME, but I'm not 😅. I just meet a lot of people that see all Linux users as enthusiasts and disregard that some changes that are happening are there because majority of users want them. That majority however is usually very quiet.

@dusansimic I promise I’m nicer than I sound in this thread on most topics, this one included — it just pains me how GNOME 2.x was a perfectly reasonable UI. Raspberry Pi OS’s default UI is pretty much still that. And it’s a reminder of better times.

Just because I think i3 makes me specifically more productive doesn’t mean I think i3 is great for general user.

Nor that I don’t want things that just work — heck, that’s why I have Windows for gaming or MacOS for video editing. Or why I’m typing this on a ~single-app-at-a-time iPad (with an attached keyboard and trackpad).

But what GNOME has done is not it.

It’s unintuitive (you can get used to it, but why?), overly animated (bad for remote access), uses more realestate than it should (titlebars should be tiny, not growing in size over time), breaks platform standards (free desktops have let WMs paint decorations for decades, but of course GNOME apps have to only expect to run under GNOME and break KDE users’ decoration expectations etc).

Remember the times when people cared about GTK themes that painted using Qt widgets (to match the theme under KDE), or when Qt themes (pre-plasma even) existed to draw widgets using GTK?
@dusansimic Also I’m more jaded than the usual modern day user, as I’ve been linuxing since the early 2000s — I’ve not seen as much as the people in the 90s, but this grandpa seen some shit, yo.

@ivan That seems to be what this whole discussion was about 😅. A generational gap. Newer users (weather they are old or young) come from systems where they don't really have hard opinions about the usability of the desktop since they just adapt however when they adapt to one desktop, they prefer it to be as comfortable as possible which is now done by making the desktop a platform rather than the system (Linux). It is ruining the party for all long time Linux users but it seems to be the future now.

@ivan For some people better times are now and they hate the look of older Linux desktops since they look... old. New users tend to like things looking fresh and polished. Thank you for your time and patience 😁. An sorry for spamming with replies, I now know I need to find a mastadon client that let's me reply with more than 500 characters.

@ivan I too promise I'm much nicer on other topics 😅. This one I'm very passionate about and very opinionated since as I already said, I think most things done today with "platforming" is fixing some problems people today expect to not exist at all. Some people might not care about them or find them minor but a lot of people I met do. I also completely understand what you mean by GNOME breaking the ui. Windows has been breanking theirs for as long as I can remember. ...

@ivan ... Once search stopped returning apps in a sane way, that was it for me. That however might not mean that someone else wouldn't prefer what is being done now.

> It’s unintuitive

I don't know about that since it's quite intuitive for me. I don't use activities really or app drawer or however they call it. I just press super and search for apps which I didn't even look up when I first started using GNOME, I just tried it and it worked because it's what was intuitive for me on Unity and Windows. ...

@ivan ... Also, some people for whoom GNOME was a new experience and needed to get used to it, sometimes start to like how it works. So far it was never unintuitive for me, just sometimes felt like it's a "work in progress" but I personally like how it's progressing and many other poeple do because a lot of them use GNOME without complaints on Ubuntu.

> overly animated

Well, kids like animations 😅.

@ivan > uses more realestate than it should

I personally like this since I use my mouse a lot and like that buttons are a bit larger and easier to access. Also, to me it's more aesthetically pleasing. Also people who use touchscreen displays prefer this. It might make sense to make it optional and give users the option to reduce the titlebar size (i think Windows has this), but it also allows for more options in titlebar and removal of menu bar (which I like).

@ivan > breaks platform standards

What I've talked about, seems like Linux is not a single platform anymore.

@dusansimic

It’s not just about tinkering with the system, it’s about having an existing setup and environment I depend on for productivity. I don’t want the rug getting pulled under me just to satisfy a designer’s ego.

but if majority of users are fine with it, then focus on some other problems

Focusing on some other problems is something I do until people managing GNOME decide to spread their bad design choices to software I actually used to like to use.

Changes to GTK done to satisfy GNOME affect usability of GTK-based apps on more sane desktops. Case in point: GTK apps are increasingly choosing to use client-side decorations and putting menu buttons inside the title bar — meaning I cannot get rid of the title bar that’s larger than ever.

GNOME, like systemd’s daemons beyond just journald and its init-related stuff, has a tendency to be the obnoxious kid in the park who thinks he’s the only one who knows how to play with another kid’s toy. (Yes, ironic I’m doing the same right now — but I don’t wield the power over what GTK or Qt apps look like, so it doesn’t matter.)

Luckily, my Linux desktop use is nowadays serious work mostly in browser+terminal. In fact, my work machine is a Linux desktop mainly because of i3 — if having the right WM didn’t make me more productive, the features and apps I actually need to do my job are all present even on a cheapo Chromebook.

They are more anoyed when it takes some fidgeting around the system to get banal stuff like vpn working.

VPNs (assuming you mean the real deal, the one that dials to your workplace or back to your home) don’t seem like something that will be magically solved by a generic desktop environment rather than your workplace/you.

Commercial “VPNs” are out of scope because they’re anti-products which claim to be there in service of privacy, but I’ve no reason to believe their claims they interfere with my connections less than my ISP (in fact, it seems like a great honeypot for collecting “interesting” traffic without having to build that pesky physical infrastructure).

@ivan
> I don’t want the rug getting pulled under me just to satisfy a designer’s ego. I agree, but lately it seems like more and more people like what is hapening with GNOME and Plasma (fwik Plasma is changing a lot also) so I was more talking about how those people might prefere GNOME as is and might like what comes out next. My point being, it might be better to let people try it out before giving your opinion about it. (the trigger for me was when you said I wouldn't want it on anyone 😅).

@ivan
> Changes to GTK done to satisfy GNOME affect usability of GTK-based apps on more sane desktops. That is correct, it is a problem for people on other desktops who want to use GNOME apps, but that seems to be a pattern with all desktops on Linux. They are starting to turn into platforms (you have multiple apps that do the same thing but are made for different platforms) since those platforms are starting to have some design guidelines.

@ivan
You could debate weather those guidelines are good or not but they are there and that's why things are starting to diverge. What GNOME is doing to GTK is problematic for other distros but's that's also why they made libadwaita (so GTK wouldn't take as much new stuff that GNOME wants to add to their platform). I understand the problem but I also think this way desktops on Linux are getting more polished and in general better since they are not bounded by being compatable with every other...

@ivan desktop or wm out there. It's making problemes on some places but it's solving them elsewhere. It's basically the same with any other platform that is adding new changes which are breaking workflow for someone (Android, Apple systems or Windows).

> assuming you mean the real deal, the one that dials to your workplace or back to your home

That's exactly what I meant. The reason I specifically mentioned vpn is that my faculty has a page with instructions for students on how to connect to the...

@ivan ...faculty vpn (sstp). It's targeted for ubuntu and it suggests adding a ppa which would add package that's needed for network manager to work. That ppa is now afaik outdated and the package is not available in official repos. Students could go to tech support for their help to fix that but that doesn't seem like a solution to me, it's more of a workaround. This is not necessarily a de problem but it should be something to think about imho.

@ivan
> Commercial “VPNs” are out of scope because they’re anti-products which claim to be there in service of privacy

Completely agree, it's fantastic to "pop up somewhere else in the world" but if you at least have some technical knowledge, it shouldn't be difficult to watch a good yt tutorial on how to set up your on vpn on a vps.

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