@ashfurrow regatding the new rule: "no unsolicited advice from strangers". What does that even mean? I cant advice an application to someone publicly?

@Wraptile if someone asks for advice, go for it. If you’re a mutual with them, you can offer advice. But if it’s some stranger complaining about Linux or whatever, don’t go telling them what they should be doing differently (unless they ask for suggestions). Am I making sense?

@Wraptile it’s basically a “do onto others as you would have them do onto you” but extended to a specific scenario (which tech people sometimes get wrong). Most users are already adhering to this rule, we are just trying to judge everyone to be kinder to strangers.

@ashfurrow @Wraptile for a concrete example:

Bob: "Ugh I hate Windows my printer never works"

Good reponses:
Alice (who does not know Bob at all): "That sucks!"

Erin (who is mutuals with Bob): "Oh no! Have you tried these drivers?"

Bad response:
Todd (who does not know Bob at all): "Oh no! Have you tried using Linux?"

@xmakina @ashfurrow @Wraptile Yeah, this exactly. It's something that tech circles are absolutely notorious for on the network, to the point where people specifically asked tech instances as a whole to adopt this rule to help directly mitigate it

@bclindner I feel this answers your question, @Wraptile. It is a bit extreme, but that's because the problem of unsolicited advice from tech dudes has become so systemic and constant that extreme measures are needed to get things back on track.

Honestly though, I wouldn't worry about it. Either you don't do it, so don't need to worry, or you do do it, and now you know to stop, so don't need to worry :)

@xmakina @bclindner I see, well personally I love when people discuss software like this. Some of the coolest apps I found through "unsolicited advices" and love to give such advices myself as there is so much brilliant software that is relatively unknown. Just today someone complained on local stream about curl and I recommended them to check out httpie because it solves a lot of issues curl suffers from - is that breaking the rule?

@Wraptile dude, read the announcement. It's an entry in the CoC for using this instance.

The point of it is not for folks to rules lawyer and limit test, it's for folks having it used as a harrasment tool against them knowing it's safe to report that behaviour and they'll be listened to.

@xmakina sure but these vague micro management rules discourage public discussion. Now I feel like I shouldn't propose anything in case someone gets offended and bans me without warning or whatever 🤷‍♂️

Sorry don't want to appear annoying just sharing my 2 cents about potential side effects of such management. If some people are unable to handle someone suggesting them software then imho insufficient administration is the least of their mental worries. Maybe at this point it would be wise to step back from s

@Wraptile or, and hear me out here, people who cannot deal with unsolicited advice from tech bros when they just want to vent to their friends still deserve social media and if they feel like they're being harassed they should know it's safe to report that harrassment, rather than being judged and told to leave?

@Wraptile you're basically arguing that folks with any issues around unsolicited advice; be that a history of it coming from a place of racism, fatphobia, transphobia or anything else; do not deserve to be on social media and should leave. which is --literally-- what this change in the CoC is about addressing; unsolicited advice being used as a harrasment tactic

@xmakina if you want to vent to your friend put on a "friend's only" checkmark? I'd argue that polluting public space is pointless rage screams warrants a ban more than an unsolicited software recommendation 🤷‍♂️

@xmakina personally I'm triggered by people swearing and raging about software in public spaces. The same way we don't tolerate raging maniacs in town square the same way I find people raging in public space triggering.

@Wraptile sounds awful and I'm sorry that's a trigger for you. I hope you feel safe reporting this behaviour to other instances, and if not that's possibly a wider discussion to be had on the meta (although I'd request starting a new thread about it rather than adding something quite important and different to an already long thread)

@Wraptile fundamentally this is a CoC change that has come from a large group of people reporting a constant source of harrasment that goes under the radar for a lot of folks. As Ash says elsewhere, lead with compassion, and that's what this is trying to do :)

@xmakina nah I like being triggered - I'm a firm believer than negative interactions and experiences are must for healthy and grounded life experience but that's besides the point what I imply more thought that I'm adult enough to manage myself and my social experiences and so is majority of people. I think power creep for report button will result in more and more unhealthy community and actually harm the people it aims to protect. You have to let kids play in the mud sometimes.

@Wraptile I dare say we're using staggeringly different uses for the word "trigger" which is unfortunate but these things happen. Take care of yourself, I'm stepping away from this conversation with you now.

@xmakina sure thing, sorry if I came off aggressive, you seem like a nice person 👍

@Wraptile @xmakina Yes.

I think an important clarification needs to be made here: while you may enjoy giving and receiving unsolicited advice, not everyone does. In fact, our extended network at large frowns upon it because people - specifically and almost exclusively tech-savvy users - do it constantly when people post negatively about something they use. Sometimes we all just need to scream into the void about stuff we're using, without a voice calling back "have you tried using X?".

@bclindner @xmakina dunno if I agree with the "sometimes we need to scream into the void" argument though. What makes you entitled to public pollution and immunity to any sort of feedback? That seems awfully unhealthy. By the same argument racists and all sorts of bigots should be entitled to screaming into the void as well, right? I feel that public space shouldn't be for anger release, write a note or something and there are specific services for such release as well.

@Wraptile @xmakina It is becoming increasingly clear that I cannot reason with you about this.

We have no intent of changing this rule. If you find yourself disagreeing with our team's decision, I would invite you to find another instance, at which point if you harass someone by giving unsolicited advice and they report you, it is only our problem if someone from our instance is involved, or if your new instance's admins excuse enough troublemakers for us to defederate from them. Cheers!

@bclindner @xmakina wow no need to be so condensending - was just having a discussion; chill.

@bclindner @xmakina to me public release equates to request for discourse. Either "help me fix this" or "fight me" or "in leaving you a bad yelp review"

@xmakina @ashfurrow I don't really get this. Why post something publicly if you don't accept public responses? Mastodon supports follower only posting.

This seems kinda extreme.

@Wraptile @xmakina @ashfurrow Posting publicly and asking for advice are not the same thing - the latter is a subset of the former. Similarly, replying with advice is a subset of replying. It's that subset (giving advice when it wasn't asked for) that's covered by the rule. You're still allowed to reply to public posts obviously, it's just this specific kind of reply that's an issue.

@xmakina @ashfurrow @Wraptile

how would erin's answer be worth less if it came from alice or todd?

@guenther @xmakina @Wraptile it isn’t about worth, it’s about familiarity. It’s difficult to outline definitive rules for what types of social interactions are acceptable, but a general guideline is to lead with empathy; Alice is leading with empathy because they are acknowledging the problem and validating the feelings (“that sucks”). Todd’s answer doesn’t do that, and he doesn’t have the familiarity to skip it (whereas friends might).

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