@tzafrir I know that realistically, that isn't what's meant, it just made me laugh the first time I saw it in the Gemara, and I wondered what secular Israelis thought of it, or if it had just become so entrenched in the Jewish psyche, that even non religious knew and used such terms.
@tzafrir @Theophilus literally, אף-על-פי-כן means "even by that".
@Theophilus אף means "also".
@Theophilus על-פי literally means "by the mouth of" and is used to indicate someone's opinion, saying or point of view. על פי מקורות זרים (which is used a lot in Israeli newspapers) is "by foreign news sources" which means "this is something that censorship doesn't allow us to publish, but we can say it if we just say it was published abroad". 😀
@eladhen THAT is what I was looking for!!! So it is ingrained into the general Jewish consciousness! Very cool!
@Theophilus Feel free to ask questions about Hebrew.
@eladhen I don't speak modern Hebrew. At all. When I try and speak "Talmudic" Hebrew, Israelis understand me but always appear puzzled. They really don't SOUND all that different to me, though there are quite a few words in modern Hebrew that I don't understand at all.
@Theophilus Feel free to ask anything about Modern Hebrew. Talmudic Hebrew is fairly distinct from it.
@Theophilus And more to the point: I don't know about Jewish consciousness, it's part of day-to-day Modern Hebrew.
@Theophilus I'm not sure what you mean. In אף על פי כן (af al pi khen) while could be read literally as "nose on my mouth as well", has no relation to either nose or mouth AFAIK.
Generally modern #Hebrew is artificially similar to biblical Hebrew. Which is why I can generally read the Jewish Bible. The Talmud is Aramaic, which secular Jews normally can't read.