@sendoshin I know quite a few "secular huminists" who, in my view, are much kinder, more generous and infinitely more genuine that religious people. It certainly seems to have a morality that surpasses even that of the most passionate of the faithful... But that's just outside looking in. I haven't ever - attended any meetings? Do they even have meetings? I'm confused...

@Theophilus Heh. Nah. Not really. Unless you count college courses or whatever.

Personally a spiritual humanist, myself. Only real difference there is recognizing the cultural value of rituals, while keeping that separate from the superstitions that created them.

@sendoshin Tell me more. My interest is piqued. Or link... you know, whatever.

@Theophilus First, HOLY CRAP SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS INTEREST GETS PIQUED!!!

Second, I can link, but ... well, they're trying to sell ordinations, so ... not sure how much is actually _useful_ there.

@sendoshin Well, that's convenient then... 😥 Off to google!!! Let's see... "Spiritual Humanism"...

@Theophilus Yeah, sorry, aside from that summary I already gave, it's hard to really explain... It's just like any other Humanism, but with rituals included as a way to connect with our past, do some of the same things our ancestors did, better understand the sources of our cultures, etc. Feels like a neat way to balance the two elements.

Plus, I can perform weddings, too!

@sendoshin So, sort of like holding to some of the ancient Nord/Breton practices, but approaching them with respect and honour for those that came before, rather than acting out of actual spiritual belief and fervour?

@Theophilus Sure! Or whatever practices those present would harken back to. I mean, technically, we could all go back to, say, Sumer, but y'know. Whatever applies to the individual or group in question.

@sendoshin Did you mention Sumer because of my degree? I've studied the culture for 14 years!!! But yeah, I have roots in Celtic and Nordic mythology being predominately Welsh/Irish with a touch of Scandinavia myself, and have always had an extreme interest, but never really believed in it.

@sendoshin Was invited to a "Druid" ceremony once from a sincere group of people with the right ancestry, but it felt too LARP, so I declined.

@Theophilus Actually, mentioned Sumer because it's the earliest group whose religious beliefs and ceremonies we might have, to my understanding.

Also because my roommate is really fascinated by them, and especially their religion. But still cool that there's the overlap!

It's tricky to find the balance between respectful and performance. It's always going to end up somewhere between the two, but IME the ritual itself really _is_ performance, even with belief to back it.

@sendoshin Fair enough! I can handle that.

@krruzic It seems the general tone of the post that got my curiosity up... It seems to state that fearing punishment and wanting reward aren't valid, and that you can only worship if you have a "relationship" (The post was shortened to fit here), so those who don't "feel" a relationship aren't genuine.

@Theophilus I would ignore it. A lot of people these days (Americans especially) have warped things and invented this weird 'relationship' concept. I say it's bullshit. It's not a competition to see who is the 'best' at worshipping God... to these people it is though.

@krruzic I see too many mountaintop experiences to put too much stock in it...

@krruzic @Theophilus The beauty and reality of emotional fellowship with God is far from being bull. But to say that emotion is REQUIRED for righteousness and the salvation it affords, or to worship, certainly is bull. God accepts all who align themselves with Christ and his heart, whether through emotion, reason, or ideally both.

@vespin_feebler Trust me, I'd really like to be able to do the emotional bit. I've even tried praying for it, but it just isn't going to happen.

@Theophilus I can confidently tell you that God understands, if truly this is beyond you. God is Reason, and it is only rational to not expect from people more than they can give, especially when we can do nothing apart from his grace.

@vespin_feebler Especially if you, yourself are responsible for having created said person with said inability...

@Theophilus Yes and no, regarding any negative state in which we find ourselves. In one sense, all is part of God's plan, but in another sense, God desires that no one be less than his own perfection. But that's one of the great mysteries of the ages. All the Bible tells us regarding this great mystery is that we have no right to make any accusation of wrong-doing against God, and that if our negative state is caused by our sin, we are responsible for it. We are responsible for anything that is sin.

@vespin_feebler I don't recall sinning before my birth to earn this disorder...

@Theophilus I was making no accusation. But you are still able to do much, because God has given you a powerful mind. If you cannot offer your emotions to God, then offer your mind, while remaining humble toward the need to love by action, and toward the existence of emotional offerings and those who give them.

@vespin_feebler @Theophilus Late to the table here, but wanted to throw this in: The Gr. word for faith, "pistis." which sometimes means "trust" in the Bible and which sometimes we make to mean some amorphous feeling, actually has the connotation of allegiance, too. So, do we give our allegiance to Jesus or do we give it to other things (Caesar, success, Self, etc)? This ultimately is more important than how we feel/feel towards God.

@joshgaudreau @Theophilus And certainly in the ancient Hebrew mindset, faith included action, and wasn't merely a passive belief like in ancient Greek thinking... hence the books of James and 1 John.

@vespin_feebler @Theophilus And even a lot of Paul, too, actually.

@joshgaudreau @Theophilus Definitely, it's just that James and 1 John were specifically written for the very purpose of showing how faith without works is dead.

@vespin_feebler @Theophilus good point, I should have made it clear that not all emotion is bullshit. I think it is valuable and real (sometimes)