@thomasfuchs The init system component of systemd is only one component out of a suite. Systemd also includes an event logger, a login manager, a simple network interface manager, a temp file manager, a daemon that manages time related settings, a device manager, a standard library to access the device manager and a boot manager.
If, say, a journaling daemon isn't designed to interface with systemd, then it obviously wont work. Just because you can't install Google Chrome extensions on Firefox doesn't mean that you can't install any addons in Firefox.
@emacsomancer if that’s the case then glibc, efi, libinput, wayland are even bigger issue than systemd but they don’t get near as much attention.
Before wide‑spread of systemd Eelco Dolstra (Nix(OS) creator) *chose* systemd as init cuz he could focus on more important things than maintaining hand‑written arbitrary init scripts.
Distro maintainers choose maintained inits, service managers and supervision services cuz that’s less work for them hence wide-spread adoption.
Well what we have besides systemd? s6 suit used by Obarun and immediately patched cuz it’s difficult to use?
sysvinit, upstart, launchd, sinit?
Are those solutions anywhere near modern, robust and maintained software with clear separation of init, service management and supervision? Are those not sets of arbitrary design decisions?
I’m happy so hear about modern init suites but from my research they are all ad‑hoc ‘garbage’ (including systemd).
Healthy and reasonable criticism is ok. A crusade full of vitriol and shallow slogans is what I see in most vocal anti‑systemd folks (I am not talking about you here).
My main distro doesn’t even have systemd but who cares? Do we spend majority of our time in init, supervision and system management to complain about init so much?
Someone has a better idea then *do* it!
@emacsomancer systemd is not a community‑driven project. Devs take money to fulfill Red Hat’s requirements first.
Distro maintainers have a choice: maintain and integrate other inits or use corporate‑driven init.
Alas the latter one is naturally less work cuz indirectly paid devs maintain part of your distro (and bring more features for free as in beer).
@emacsomancer Sure thing. That’s why I avoid corporation‑driven projects when I can. Corporation needs come always first.
And now Microsoft et al is in The Linux Foundation sponsoring more and more projects aligned with their needs.
That’s why folks fixated on systemd miss the point.
The whole stack is more and more about Big Corp and hostile to ‘commons’.
We need to create what we want. Demanding stuff from them is waste of time.
@emacsomancer meanwhile Mozilla added DRM to Firefox, Google put it in Chromium, Collabora added it to Weston (the reference implementation for Wayland), nVidia keeps GPUs encrypted, Intel defines Linux’s new wireless stack, Broadcom and Qualcomm keeps wifi/BT proprietary, Apple decides how printing stack looks like, … [listing many more essential projects pushed by corporations], … and after all of that the biggest topic is not ideal init cuz it has technical issues 🤦
The point was that as I user it’s very difficult to avoid those basic programs in the same way as is to avoid systemd. That’s not a new situation, there’s nothing special about it.
Today we have llvm or musl but that wasn’t the case for over 20 years. Folks didn’t like defaults so they developed alternatives.
Nothing technical stops us from porting systemd so musl.
Free software is not about others doing whatever we want.
There is no obligation to follow compatibility.
Guix breaks it to accomplish new things.
systemd breaks it cuz supporting BSD is useless for Linux corporation.
systemd doesn’t have namesake modularity. That’s very visible in embedded systems† where devs don’t use majority of systemd components—no journal, no networking and so on.
Guix is the same ‘vendor lock‑in’ as systemd. To use guix packages we *need* to install guix and package new stuff in Guix, following Guix ways. Thanks to guix maintainers that work is invisible to end users but it locks maintainers. They pay instead of users.
Systemd project leaders have idea what to do to make job easy for Red Hat and their clients. It’s reasonable for them to do what they do cuz Red Hat pays for that.
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